唐德刚论成年人学英语的困难
唐德刚《胡适杂忆》第54节：
老实说拼音文字并不就那么容易学。 君不见纽约地区有中国侨胞十万人，其中九万人既不能说英语，也不能读英文。今日我高级专业技术人员旅美者亦在万人以上。老实说，万人之中，其包括在下在内的百分之八十以上的绝大多数，要写一封清通无讹的(idiomatic & flawless) 英文信，也都很困难！此非徒笔者个人愚告自卑，而厚诬我八千留美同文，实在也是因为流落番邦三十载，知其实情，也知道学英文是实在太难啊！
事实上，天下的语言都是一样的。不是方块字难，拼音文就容易。文字之难易端视乎学习者个人的条件——尤其是他的年龄！1 0 岁以下去学，则天下无难字； 20 岁以后去学，则没有不难的语言！这也是我们在海外搞“双语教育“的经验之谈啊。
唐德刚：1959年哥伦比亚大学历史学博士；纽约州立大学历史系教授。
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我把唐德刚先生这段文字发出来，用意有两个。其一，学语言需要大量的训练，没有别的捷径。其二，如果是成年之后才系统学另外一种语言，达不到native speaker的水平也很正常，应平常心看待。毕竟语言的主要作用还是交流的工具。能做到“文采奕奕”自然好，但能平实地表达出自己的意思，也足够了。
=====================
高赞Nederland的评论，颇有唐德刚先生英语学不好是他无法融入异国（唐的英文其实很好，很好，当然那肯定是深度打磨的结果），而Nederland则可以的意思。但细看一下她/他半年前的一篇英文文章，立刻在同一段发现三处错误：“In every episode is sufficient and comprehensive background knowledge”，漏掉了there； the authors will try to，will应该去掉，以保持同一时态；the reason why.... and how.... are well explained，这里宜删除the reason, 不仅对称有美感，也不会使人误会。另一段中，as if it could read my concepts，根据上下文，肯定是read my mind之误。唐德刚先生说“要写一封清通无讹的(idiomatic & flawless) 英文信，也都很困难”，这话写于几十年前，岂不是很有先见之明！！哈哈哈哈。但是，正如我前面说的，成年人学一门语言，做到native speaker那个水平实在很难的。我没有苛责Nederland的意思，我自己也深受困扰，下笔成错，所以读了唐先生的这段话才深有感触。
老实说拼音文字并不就那么容易学。 君不见纽约地区有中国侨胞十万人，其中九万人既不能说英语，也不能读英文。今日我高级专业技术人员旅美者亦在万人以上。老实说，万人之中，其包括在下在内的百分之八十以上的绝大多数，要写一封清通无讹的(idiomatic & flawless) 英文信，也都很困难！此非徒笔者个人愚告自卑，而厚诬我八千留美同文，实在也是因为流落番邦三十载，知其实情，也知道学英文是实在太难啊！
事实上，天下的语言都是一样的。不是方块字难，拼音文就容易。文字之难易端视乎学习者个人的条件——尤其是他的年龄！1 0 岁以下去学，则天下无难字； 20 岁以后去学，则没有不难的语言！这也是我们在海外搞“双语教育“的经验之谈啊。
唐德刚：1959年哥伦比亚大学历史学博士；纽约州立大学历史系教授。
---------------------------------
我把唐德刚先生这段文字发出来，用意有两个。其一，学语言需要大量的训练，没有别的捷径。其二，如果是成年之后才系统学另外一种语言，达不到native speaker的水平也很正常，应平常心看待。毕竟语言的主要作用还是交流的工具。能做到“文采奕奕”自然好，但能平实地表达出自己的意思，也足够了。
=====================
高赞Nederland的评论，颇有唐德刚先生英语学不好是他无法融入异国（唐的英文其实很好，很好，当然那肯定是深度打磨的结果），而Nederland则可以的意思。但细看一下她/他半年前的一篇英文文章，立刻在同一段发现三处错误：“In every episode is sufficient and comprehensive background knowledge”，漏掉了there； the authors will try to，will应该去掉，以保持同一时态；the reason why.... and how.... are well explained，这里宜删除the reason, 不仅对称有美感，也不会使人误会。另一段中，as if it could read my concepts，根据上下文，肯定是read my mind之误。唐德刚先生说“要写一封清通无讹的(idiomatic & flawless) 英文信，也都很困难”，这话写于几十年前，岂不是很有先见之明！！哈哈哈哈。但是，正如我前面说的，成年人学一门语言，做到native speaker那个水平实在很难的。我没有苛责Nederland的意思，我自己也深受困扰，下笔成错，所以读了唐先生的这段话才深有感触。
118 个评论
此非徒笔者个人愚告自卑，而厚诬我八千留美同文，实在也是因为流落番邦三十载，知其实情，也知道学英文是实在太难啊！
其实他不用论了，这句话某个细节已经展示出他和他的同伴学不好英语的根本原因。
>>其实他不用论了，这句话某个细节已经展示出他和他的同伴学不好英语的根本原因。
在我读过的华人学者里，唐的英文水平已经是非常好了。你看另外一个帖子，帖主也留居加拿大几十年了，讽刺00后小留英语不行，但他一说英语也出错了。你在我的评论里找得到。成年人学语言难而已。
>>其实他不用论了，这句话某个细节已经展示出他和他的同伴学不好英语的根本原因。
钱钟书曾向汪荣祖坦承，他写的英文虽然非常很好，但做不到native speakers那种“几分随意”。我貌似也见过您写的英文，恕我直言，写的不错，但也做不到“几分随意”。
>>钱钟书曾向汪荣祖坦承，他写的英文虽然非常很好，但做不到native speakers那种“几分随意”...
Exactly, cuz I'm not a native speaker of English, instead, I've been learning it as my fourth language.
汉语简单，英语太难，习惯了简单的语言再去学困难的语言，就是这么困难。
英语是母语的人都要被单词背到中年，第二语言的人一辈子也达不到足够的词汇量。
我越学英语就越觉得这个语言是真的蠢，比汉语差得太远。
英语是母语的人都要被单词背到中年，第二语言的人一辈子也达不到足够的词汇量。
我越学英语就越觉得这个语言是真的蠢，比汉语差得太远。
>>Exactly, cuz I'm not a native speaker of English, ...
"History, afterall, is the true poetry. And Reality, if rightly interpreted, is grander than Fiction." 这是最近读到的论文里的一句话。作者在西方史家里，还算不上顶级，即便如此，扪心自问，这种文采，我已经难以做到。希望你可以。加油！
语言是有等级的，作为非母语，能把事情说清楚就可以了。没必要比来比去。
至于说英语蠢的，实在是懒得批驳。不学最好。
至于说英语蠢的，实在是懒得批驳。不学最好。
我觉得成人学英语难这话题跟减肥难一个道理。
这事本身真的很难吗？不觉得，难的从来都是为此付出的时间精力
这事本身真的很难吗？不觉得，难的从来都是为此付出的时间精力
>>钱钟书曾向汪荣祖坦承，他写的英文虽然非常很好，但做不到native speakers那种“几分随意”...
That doesn't really matter, we are not English majors.
valengosu
黑名单
英语难学什么？有没有可能是中国人普遍智商较低？
学英语（外语）难不难？说难，也不难。
说难，有道理。就象楼主说的，“纽约地区有中国侨胞十万人，其中九万人既不能说英语，也不能读英文。”在加拿大，莫说留学生，就连在加生活十几二十年的老华侨，能真正把英语当普通话说的都几乎没有。欣赏英语影视剧，则基本停留在听懂简单部分，关键复杂的地方只能靠猜。例外的只有那些与老外同居或结婚的中国女性。传说中在国外生活几年，英语绝对没问题，成了个绝对的忽悠鸡汤，以至加国老华侨说，成年人学语言也就这个样了，要学精通是不可能的。你们说，能不难吗？
说不难，也有根有据。请看那些留学中国的黑人，他们也是成年后来中国的，可几年下来中文没有成问题的。说实话，很多黑人普通话比我说得还溜，有的连中国人都头疼的方言也学会了。难道英语比中文难学得多，或者中国人比黑人笨得多？不会吧。
关键还在学习环境、学习条件。中国人在加拿大学英语，永远是鸡和蛋哪个先有的问题——你语言不行，没人与你多啰嗦；没人啰嗦，语言又哪里会行。几年下来，哪怕天才也巧媳妇难为无米之炊。相比之下，土共把黑人当爹伺候，唯恐不周，还配三个陪聊陪睡的女伴。社会上也是唯洋是崇，遇上包括黑人在内的老外想学中文，立马会让一些国人受宠若惊，那个叫热情呐，还不算主动投怀送抱的中国女孩。有这样的条件，白痴都能学好中文了。
如此浅显的道理，海外中国人却讳莫如深。为了他们自我设定的面子，整出个“成年人学英语也就这样了”。为什么说那是他们自我设定的面子呢？因为口口声声成年人不可能学好外语，给人的印象是这个人非笨即懒，还找借口掩盖，同样很丢人呐。但是，在那些走出国门的同胞心中，哪怕被人认为又笨又懒，也好过曝光中国人在国外的边缘人状态。呵呵。
说难，有道理。就象楼主说的，“纽约地区有中国侨胞十万人，其中九万人既不能说英语，也不能读英文。”在加拿大，莫说留学生，就连在加生活十几二十年的老华侨，能真正把英语当普通话说的都几乎没有。欣赏英语影视剧，则基本停留在听懂简单部分，关键复杂的地方只能靠猜。例外的只有那些与老外同居或结婚的中国女性。传说中在国外生活几年，英语绝对没问题，成了个绝对的忽悠鸡汤，以至加国老华侨说，成年人学语言也就这个样了，要学精通是不可能的。你们说，能不难吗？
说不难，也有根有据。请看那些留学中国的黑人，他们也是成年后来中国的，可几年下来中文没有成问题的。说实话，很多黑人普通话比我说得还溜，有的连中国人都头疼的方言也学会了。难道英语比中文难学得多，或者中国人比黑人笨得多？不会吧。
关键还在学习环境、学习条件。中国人在加拿大学英语，永远是鸡和蛋哪个先有的问题——你语言不行，没人与你多啰嗦；没人啰嗦，语言又哪里会行。几年下来，哪怕天才也巧媳妇难为无米之炊。相比之下，土共把黑人当爹伺候，唯恐不周，还配三个陪聊陪睡的女伴。社会上也是唯洋是崇，遇上包括黑人在内的老外想学中文，立马会让一些国人受宠若惊，那个叫热情呐，还不算主动投怀送抱的中国女孩。有这样的条件，白痴都能学好中文了。
如此浅显的道理，海外中国人却讳莫如深。为了他们自我设定的面子，整出个“成年人学英语也就这样了”。为什么说那是他们自我设定的面子呢？因为口口声声成年人不可能学好外语，给人的印象是这个人非笨即懒，还找借口掩盖，同样很丢人呐。但是，在那些走出国门的同胞心中，哪怕被人认为又笨又懒，也好过曝光中国人在国外的边缘人状态。呵呵。
世上不存在适用于每个人的「一般化」理论。
自己的能耐在自己身上，由自己发掘，从来不会在别人嘴里冒出来。
自己的能耐在自己身上，由自己发掘，从来不会在别人嘴里冒出来。
>>高卢话和罗马话哪个简单不重要，罗马先进你就得学罗马话罗马先进你又不学罗马话你就落后，落后人士给先进人...
我哪句话说我不学英语了？
我又哪句话提到“人士”了？
我说的是“语言”吧？就算我是落后人士，落后认识说先进人士说的语言落后，这个不可以吗？
再借用一下你的例子，罗马语现在在哪呢？法语也比英语流行得多，现在呢？先进与落后是永恒的吗？
你这逻辑能力实在让我尴尬
另外，我的各种困境到底是什么来着？你不说我还真不知道。
觉得成年后学习外语或者任何年龄学习外语困难的，
可以多看看关愚谦老师的经历，
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu-chien_Kuan
和面对各种土匪国生活当中的「困难」比起来，学习语言之路上的障碍，简直是老天爷太便宜人类学习语言这件事，
可以多看看关愚谦老师的经历，
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu-chien_Kuan
和面对各种土匪国生活当中的「困难」比起来，学习语言之路上的障碍，简直是老天爷太便宜人类学习语言这件事，
The observation made in the 胡适杂忆 actually strikes a familiar chord with me, where I live there are many Chinese(ethnically) people, most of them(since I didn't meet every one of them ) can't communicate with people in English very efficiently, or say speak like native speakers, and a big percentage of the said group can't speak English reasonably well even though they've been living in the town for very long time, some well over 20 years, one of the main problems is that most people never tried to improve their language skills or they consider it's too difficult to even worth trying, and to be honest, it is boring and tiring to improve your language skill if there are no great incentives, so most people will just stay in their comfort zone.
Back then I was really not good at speaking, and I'm not sure I even was good at anything regarding English, the difference between now and then is day and night, I feel totally comfortable with English in so many ways that sometimes I'd speak English in my dream, that's kind of funny in a sense. The incentive for me improve my English is that my job requires me to talk our customers which is a very diverse group of people, in the beginning I was so afraid of talking to people I'd try to pass the calls to someone else but sometimes I had to talk, and I had to make sure the customers were satisfied, their questions were answered and problems were solved, I can't remember exactly how it happened, all of sudden I was so relaxed when I was talking to people, I even could crack a few jokes from time to time, the only thing I can remember is that all the good things happened when I started learning Spanish by English(Duolingo), I believe that made my understanding of English as a language so much better that I am actually kind of becoming a native speaker, even though to this day I still have some recognizable accents, I'd say I am a 95% native speaker, that 5% is about the accent which I'm working on right now.
When you feel you can express whatever you'd like in a language without resorting to another language you know(kind of like translation), you're on the right track to become a native speaker alike.
Back then I was really not good at speaking, and I'm not sure I even was good at anything regarding English, the difference between now and then is day and night, I feel totally comfortable with English in so many ways that sometimes I'd speak English in my dream, that's kind of funny in a sense. The incentive for me improve my English is that my job requires me to talk our customers which is a very diverse group of people, in the beginning I was so afraid of talking to people I'd try to pass the calls to someone else but sometimes I had to talk, and I had to make sure the customers were satisfied, their questions were answered and problems were solved, I can't remember exactly how it happened, all of sudden I was so relaxed when I was talking to people, I even could crack a few jokes from time to time, the only thing I can remember is that all the good things happened when I started learning Spanish by English(Duolingo), I believe that made my understanding of English as a language so much better that I am actually kind of becoming a native speaker, even though to this day I still have some recognizable accents, I'd say I am a 95% native speaker, that 5% is about the accent which I'm working on right now.
When you feel you can express whatever you'd like in a language without resorting to another language you know(kind of like translation), you're on the right track to become a native speaker alike.
>>觉得成年后学习外语或者任何年龄学习外语困难的，可以多看看关愚谦老师的经历，https://en.wi...
Age is never a problem, but the aging will for personal achievements certainly is.
Many though still breathe and walk, they are in fact already died inside.
>>The observation made in the 胡适杂忆 actually strikes ...
A bit stiff in your first paragraph, TOO IVORY TOWER, instead of talking like the living folk.
Generally speaking, your expression is way too formal, like a rookie cook waiting to be judged by picky punters.
However, your last conclusion (paragraph), that is certainly the right destination for whoever pursuing the capability in language(s).
I, personally, don't need nothing else than English to understand English, years ago.
I can see that you ACQUIRE your English by practicing in real life.
Language is practice.
No amount of grammar drill, blank filling, or quiz cramming can do that 'practice', stop wasting your time with them, you have to use that Language for the purpose of actual living: reading, writing, speaking, thinking, and of course, all those require good listening, and most importantly, understanding.
--------------------------------------
Since you decide to use English as L1 to accquire L2, Spanish, that is just like something I was doing: Chinese as L1 to acquire 日本語, and English as L1 to acquire Deutsche Sprache, and perhaps Indonesia Bahasa, or some other Indo-European languages.
>>学英语（外语）难不难？说难，也不难。说难，有道理。就象楼主说的，“纽约地区有中国侨胞十万人，其中九万...
漏屋老师有本书：找对英语学习方法的第一本书，值得推荐，里面详细介绍了语言学习的原理，但是没有写出来应该如何学习。
借用楼下的话：世上不存在适用于每个人的「一般化」理论。
自己的能耐在自己身上，由自己发掘，从来不会在别人嘴里冒出来。非常深刻的指出了问题的所在
>>在我读过的华人学者里，唐的英文水平已经是非常好了。你看另外一个帖子，帖主也留居加拿大几十年了，讽刺0...英语中最难掌握熟悉的是大量的名词。因为代词，数词，冠词，动词乃至形容词都有限。但无数名词无论是生活中的还是专业名词层出不穷，目不暇接。所以很难精通。此外语感需要从小模仿培养。环境很重要。香港菲律宾的语言环境不错。
>>A bit stiff in your first paragraph, TOO IVORY TOW...
OK, did you proof read what you wrote? It feels like exactly what I described which is resorting to a known language(usually a native one/mother tongue) when you are thinking, it's kind of obvious you're stilling thinking in Chinese instead of English, if you can't see that which is OK because that's quite normal.
>>OK, did you proof read what you wrote? It feels li...
Oops, looks like I over-estimated someone again.
Please stop wasting time emphasizing pointless points, as I certainly will on deaf ears and zombified minds which seems incapable of anything 'not proofed' (by who/what?), for for them, nothing outside that visible familiar circle actually exists.
>>漏屋老师有本书：找对英语学习方法的第一本书，值得推荐，里面详细介绍了语言学习的原理，但是没有写出来应...
学外语真正要达到普通话水平，特别是口语听说能力，不是靠“学”，而是大量实践，成年人更是这样。靠“学”，就是老华侨说的“成年人学外语也就这样了”。也没什么捷径可以“发掘”，是绕不过去的。
这还真是个一般化的规律，很好地解释了为什么在加拿大，除了那些与老外同居或结婚的中国女性，其余几乎没有真正能把英语当普通话说的。
>>学外语真正要达到普通话水平，特别是口语听说能力，不是靠“学”，而是大量实践，成年人更是这样。靠“学”...
「实践」是没错，但未必非要「缠着老外」才叫实践。
用英语做自己想做的事就是真正的实践，有很多可以一个人做，只用英语字幕看电视，读读喜欢的书（跟着有声书读出声，这还可以真的练说），玩玩喜欢的 VN 类游戏，网上逛逛喜欢的论坛，去看别人的博客，看看读者和作者的互动，自己还可参与，自己写下自己想表达的东西那更是一个人的工作活动，别人没得参与。
若是刚开始，可以来点简单的起步，比如童书。
Kató Lomb 就是个可以参考的「以书为师」的榜样
>>汉语简单，英语太难，习惯了简单的语言再去学困难的语言，就是这么困难。英语是母语的人都要被单词背到中年...
英語首重肯定不是詞彙，所以那麼多中國人學不好英文，因為就是用了學中文的方法去學英文。
英文首要的是tense,其次是phrasal verb。大多數中國人對tense/inflection完全沒有敏感度，這才是最要命的問題。
>>A bit stiff in your first paragraph, TOO IVORY TOW...
Frankly speaking, I have great difficulties in understanding what you’re trying to express. Though unicaman’s writing is a little robotic and unnatural, yours, on the other hand, is almost like machine translated. But I believe the rules you’re setting out are solid. We all could improve our English capacity through more practicing, and perhaps, a little bit luck.
>>Frankly speaking, I have great difficulties in und...
Oh, you new generation kids spend too much time with machines, so much that you really can mistake machines for humans, that's new, surely new to me. Perhaps that's really common among Chinese who actually have LEARNED English in a formal style of schooling? I don't find myself familiar with that.
Fortunately it seems clear now, I don't have to suffer the same kind of disease, for I didn't follow that much hated path (schooling), instead pursuing which really suits my own heart.
Well, try spend sometime somwhere more popular, like Youtube, Twitter, Reddit, or Bloggers who actually write English well, you will certainly have a different feeling.
If Still no?
Uh-oh, I don't have to be obliged to pay my tribute for your capability, right?
>>钱钟书显然不是“大多数人”。你读过他的书就知道，这人不但是个语言天才，而且极其用功。
Looks like the only reason he is being praised now, is that he 'works hard', which I do think is within anybody's reach.
If No FUN at all, why bother?
>>「实践」是没错，但未必非要「缠着老外」才叫实践。用英语做自己想做的事就是真正的实践，有很多可以一个人...
如果你只想活在自己的世界里自娱自乐，可以这么认为。但是，大多数想在国外找工作的留学生没这个福气，那些老华侨更没这个福气。他们要学以致用、“融入主流”，要去跟人家竞争有限的机会，就需要脱口而出、心口如一的英语听说能力。要有这能力，大量真人实践就是绕不过去的坎。
>>如果你只想活在自己的世界里自娱自乐，可以这么认为。但是，大多数想在国外找工作的留学生没这个福气，那些...
你没看懂我在说什么啊？
你既然都能在实际生活中用英语思考，用英语跟人交换意见，用自己的文字和别人交流了，开口说就不过是个面部肌肉神经记忆的问题。不说的（哪怕自己的独白），当然就永远说不了，管你什么借口，下场都一样。
坚持借口比自己的生活实践重要的，那确实没办法，靠什么努力也救不了，先得换脑，换人格，乃至换灵魂。
>>A bit stiff in your first paragraph, TOO IVORY TOW...
There is no point to criticize a non-native speaker's mastery level. Variety is a spice of life, I believe grammar nazis are losing their moral compass since rightly communicating with a variety of people from different educational and cultural backgrounds is a rule of modern etiqutte.
>>其实他不用论了，这句话某个细节已经展示出他和他的同伴学不好英语的根本原因。我觉得学好一门语言的最好方法是语言环境。香港菲律宾新加坡人均英语水平好于中国内地。这个环境虽然不是不学习的借口，但也是一个推助力。总之，生在东亚是天然远离主流文明和主流语言的。
学习最主要就是想学。英语一开始是要解决词汇量问题，但最终还是个交流意愿和效果的问题。不能天天和本国人混在一起，这样一辈子都不会有进步。
>>There is no point to criticize a non-native speake...
We already got too many nazis, right? Even the Azov Battalion at 25 Feb. 2022 were still qualified to be labeled as NAZI by so many MSMs.
So, robotic-expression-nazis are now claiming 'your speech is not proofed therefore like those done by the machines', and a person cannot mock back? What kind of open mind is that, then?
Etiqutte, to my taste, is polite only with reciprocity ensured.
>>Frankly speaking, I have great difficulties in und...
You need to read philosophy books to get the basic gist of his saying.
>>We already got too many nazis, right? Even the Azo...
Learn Johny Cage, obviously you are po-faced and have no sense of humor
>>You need to read philosophy books to get the basic...
Oh no, that’s absolutely unnecessary. All I need is to translate Mr/MS gratesque’s English writings into Chinese by Google Translate, then piece the information together with wild guess. You need machine translation to beat machine translation.
>>Learn Johny Cage, obviously you are po-faced and h...
No, No, I prefer his wife & daughter, absolutely breaking no sweat using Cassie to squash his head.
>>No, No, I prefer his wife & daughter, absolutely b...
At least in the new timeline, he is a newly-divorced Madam Bo lover, I guess.
>>Oh no, that’s absolutely unnecessary. All I need i...
Keep your way, then, with all blessings I can manage.
That will certainly keep me amused for a long, long, and perhaps even longer period of time, with which I know I probably never get bored rewinding such Classic Moments with lovely Chinese folk.
Wow, it's like all the guys/gals here are patronizing non stop, I didn't see any interesting conversation from which I can learn something, even different perspectives would help yet I didn't see any, I just shared my personal experience, I didn't say anything like you have to, you need to, etc., yet people started getting agitated for no reason. And for criticizing someone you need to know what you're talking about, yet what I read so far proved otherwise.
Conversation is dead, long live conversation.
Conversation is dead, long live conversation.
>>你没看懂我在说什么啊？你既然都能在实际生活中用英语思考，用英语跟人交换意见，用自己的文字和别人交流了...
你这纯属想当然，说得不好听就是意淫。
学语言，特别是听说能力，就是需要环境。语言本是社会交流工具，也就必须在与人交流中成长、熟练。
就象人必须下水才能学会学好游泳一样，语言也必须在真人环境里学。在岸上比划研究是没用的。
你就别再误人子弟了。天天自言自语，弄得神经兮兮，到头来还是学不好。人家时间精力上的损失你赔？
>>At least in the new timeline, he is a newly-divorc...
Yeah? Probably takes me some time to catch up, if not occasionally reuniting with my old habits of being sucked into the tragedy of Human Condition, again and again.
>>你这纯属想当然，说得不好听就是意淫。学语言，特别是听说能力，就是需要环境。语言本是社会交流工具，也就...
You really talking about the topic of this thread? Not some parallel dimension issues I happened to miss?
Your words, if they mean anything at all, seem to fit yourself perfectly, do you concur?
>>Wow, it's like all the guys/gals here are patroniz...
Like I said, keep your way, my impervious Homo Coprophagus Somnambulus, this world belongs to your generation now.
>>You really talking about the topic of this thread?...
你在这里卖弄英语没用。
曾经有人在加拿大念了博士，写论文用的英语和你的网上“正能量”不可同日而语。但听说能力还是过不了关。莫说博士工作，连个办公室工作也找不到，最后自杀了。这新闻07年轰动一时，因为这人原本太优秀。那些老华侨告诉我，这种事当年并不少见，只是自杀的原本大多默默无闻，也就不广为人知了。
不过，他们也确实想不开，不能能曲能伸。象你那样网上晒英语，传“正能量”，抵销“负能量”，赚些外快，也是条路嘛。
>>你在这里卖弄英语没用。曾经有在加拿大念了博士，写论文用的英语和你的网上“正能量”不可同日而语。但听说...
Oh, shit, not again...
Why am I appearing so needy to somewhat mentally challenged folk who really can't hold their own mind and keep it steady, even for themselves?
Am I downing too much moonshine? Too little French broth? Too many over-cooked mussels? Too haste guzzling broccoli without heating it first?
Why they're so quick getting back into the voice-recorder mode, who even cannot get a single word of what I popped around, yet still making himself so proud to give me a sermon, like I even belong to the circle of the same folk now? Raised up by a machine? Like Sarah Conner in Genysis?
>>Oh, shit, not again...Why am I appearing so needy ...
已经跟你说了，你在这卖弄英语没用。
如果你这样秀中式英语就学成英语精通，他们就不会自杀了。
你这种“正能量”，还不如宣传阿Q精神更靠谱些。
>>I pop up as a person who watched silently,in my fr...
Let me be 'grammar nazi' for once: 'much
---------------------------
Grammar can serve you only when related issues hinder your expression of exact meanings. I think that moment is close to C1 level. (I could be wrong, better suit yourself with something you feel helpful)
To imitate exactly your target (speeches/writings) while understanding every bit of meaning, that is the most effective and efficient way. And dont' get frustrated if you cant get them all from the beginning, for you can always repeat.
---------------------------
Bit of advice, better use pure English Dictionaries, not Mandarin-English, nor English-Mandarin. Cambridge, Collins, and some other dicts online, all can be good, depending on your needs.
>>I pop up as a person who watched silently,in my fr...
And, with respect to your 'native speaker' concern, by definition, a bilingualist is a person who speaks two languages fluently, and, (by my understanding, learnings from other pioneers, and experience from personal practice,) who can, at an indistinguishable level, pass as a native and even be one who's capable of better expressing with the target language on a more cultured tier than the average Joe or Jane.
Say, you get to be a 99.9999% native, eventually, albeit that might take a decade.
---------------------------
You can remove the bracket () in above sentence to get a more proper 'meaning through grammar structure'.
Glad to see English comments are outnumbered chinese content in this post :)
And funny to watch an argument on live lol
---
Language is all about having fun.
Language is all about how much time you spent on parties, porns, Tiktok, reddit and youtube.
Imitation is a goddamn instinct, if you feel like you are 'learning' or 'practicing', you don't get it.
Whenever you feel amused, or you amuse people, that's when it becomes 'native', that's when you become 'native'.
Never stop talking shit, never stop offending people.
Do as black do, people!
And funny to watch an argument on live lol
---
Language is all about having fun.
Language is all about how much time you spent on parties, porns, Tiktok, reddit and youtube.
Imitation is a goddamn instinct, if you feel like you are 'learning' or 'practicing', you don't get it.
Whenever you feel amused, or you amuse people, that's when it becomes 'native', that's when you become 'native'.
Never stop talking shit, never stop offending people.
Do as black do, people!
我的英文水平在中国人里算不错的了，雅思8.5。 我个人的看法是非欧洲语言母语者，把英语学到精通极其困难，反过来亦然。
原因就在于英语和汉语一样，也是表达习惯，词汇谚语很庞杂的语言。
举个例子，‘’张三李四分手了,赵五前天说好马不吃回头草，劝二人别复合，今天上午又说张三浪子回头金不换，下午和李四说江山易改本性难移。”这段对中国人来说很好理解，对于HSK6级的汉语使用者不容易秒懂，也不大可能造出这些句子。英语里也存在这种情况。
原因就在于英语和汉语一样，也是表达习惯，词汇谚语很庞杂的语言。
举个例子，‘’张三李四分手了,赵五前天说好马不吃回头草，劝二人别复合，今天上午又说张三浪子回头金不换，下午和李四说江山易改本性难移。”这段对中国人来说很好理解，对于HSK6级的汉语使用者不容易秒懂，也不大可能造出这些句子。英语里也存在这种情况。
>>我的英文水平在中国人里算不错的了，雅思8.5。 我个人的看法是非欧洲语言母语者，把英语学到精通极其困...
阁下也承认，中文是很难学的。既然难学，为什么那些黑人留学生，几年下来中文没有成问题的，人家可也是成年后来中国的喔。说实话，很多黑人普通话比我说得还溜，有人甚至连中国人都感到头疼的方言也学会了。
据统计，黑人的智商在世界人种中偏低，而亚洲人则偏高。为什么黑人能做到的，中国人出国后却只能“成年人学语言也就这个样了，要学精通是不可能的（老华侨的话）”？
还不是因为实践机会大不同。包括黑人在内的老外在中国，土共给超国民待遇，社会崇洋媚外，女孩子投怀送抱。他们想学中文，只要自己愿意学，深入实践的机会多如牛毛。
而中国人出国后，绝大多数都处于一种边缘人状态。平时说的中文多过英语，与当地人只是泛泛之交，很少能在深层次融入其中。即使供职于当地企业，也往往被刻意安排些不必过多使用英语或只需日常重复性会话就能胜任的岗位，生活中则照样全盘中文。如此点到为止的英语实践，即使在国外呆上10年20年，又有什么用呢？
缺乏实践，莫说外语，就连方言也学不会。以前很多人在深圳，几年下来广东话听都吃力，就是因为他们平时生活在普通话圈子里。一本正经刻意学是没用的。
这里的讨论大多回避中国人出国后事实上的边缘人状态，英语缺乏足够的实践。这个最关键，也最让某些人觉得“有失体面”，于是顾左右而言他。咱国人都是要面子的嘛。
>>我的英文水平在中国人里算不错的了，雅思8.5。 我个人的看法是非欧洲语言母语者，把英语学到精通极其困...
Tagging a mop rag won't make it a shirt, no matter how fancy those tags are, such as TOEFL, GRE, IELTS, or that AABBCC thing.
I bet those suicidal cases are all good at paying money to earn scores from these beautiful and authentic Tags.
Your points in anything won't make a single word from your mouth, or under your fingers. Better stop this pretending shit and get honest with yourself. That really saves your precious time.
其包括在下在内的百分之八十以上的绝大多数，要写一封清通无讹的(idiomatic & flawless) 英文信，也都很困难
Don't be afraid of mistakes. Don't be paralyzed by the delusion of perfection thus giving up practice for better.
>>阁下也承认，中文是很难学的。既然难学，为什么那些黑人留学生，几年下来中文没有成问题的，人家可也是成年...
Yep. The common shyness of Chinese indicates their fear of Imperfect.
>>Tagging a mop rag won't make it a shirt, no matter...
Nowadays mop rags are tired of engaging beard stroking, and mop rags like to tag themselves balenciaga to sell a higher price, no one cares, it actually saves our precious time, doesn't it?
>>Tagging a mop rag won't make it a shirt, no matter...
It doesn't really matter for some technicians to speak broken English or heavily accented English, as long as they can write tech documents correctly they will be able to secure a technician post.
>>Yep. The common shyness of Chinese indicates their...
Yes, and beside that everyone has their own way to speak, why not just celebrate our differences (which is part of cultural diversity) and talk peacefully? The fact that those guys slapped each other just because they intended to prove themselves with higher level of English is insane.
Meanwhile in English speaking countries, at least the States as I know, most people ain't like that.
>>Yes, and beside that everyone has their own way to...
Balenciaga owners like to show off with all sizzle and no steak, don't they?
>>Yep. The common shyness of Chinese indicates their...
什么完美不完美。现在不是你在考英语，是你要去“融入主流”，要在人家的地面上赚钱谋生。
语言，特别是口语听说，是最基本的交流生存之道。连这都做不“完美”，不是边缘人是什么？
认了吧，死要面子，“宏扬正能量”是自欺欺人。
真實生活應用英文比起在網上打一堆英文論文的難度是好幾十倍
就算講得不自然能把事情簡單清楚讓別人明白是很重要的
把聽力提升到最少能準確地讀出別人想要表達的意思
退一步來說就算你球這麼多次的排華圖紙也沒有一次是因為中國人英文說不好而引起的
就算講得不自然能把事情簡單清楚讓別人明白是很重要的
把聽力提升到最少能準確地讀出別人想要表達的意思
退一步來說就算你球這麼多次的排華圖紙也沒有一次是因為中國人英文說不好而引起的
>>谢谢你的鼓励，我对英语的文学很感兴趣。
一方面我诚然是鼓励你。另一方面我也是有所保留。我看了你的长段英文，还是不错的，但距离你认为的“英语学不好的唐德刚和他的伙伴们”还有不少差距（唐德刚所写英文版李宗仁回忆录网上有电子版的，你找找看看即知。），更别说我给你举的那个很有文采韵味的例子了。大家一起努力好了。
>>一方面我诚然是鼓励你。另一方面我也是有所保留。我看了你的长段英文，还是不错的，但距离你认为的“英语学...
Fine，一件事我好奇：
你以前认识我？我上次写长段英文得有几个月了吧，那时我的用户名是中文的尼德兰。
@rowlandheights
Welcome to the Eden of man-shaped-tools, that kind of occupations do have a massive boost on their psyche, to the degree that many envious types feel the proud to criticize some others for not having such 'privilege' (the right for a shithole position), just like that both bodily and mentally deaf and blind folk in this thread who keeps trying to show his vintage status toward me.
What a joke he is without ever knowing it himself, though for me, too cheap to laugh.
Welcome to the Eden of man-shaped-tools, that kind of occupations do have a massive boost on their psyche, to the degree that many envious types feel the proud to criticize some others for not having such 'privilege' (the right for a shithole position), just like that both bodily and mentally deaf and blind folk in this thread who keeps trying to show his vintage status toward me.
What a joke he is without ever knowing it himself, though for me, too cheap to laugh.
>>Balenciaga owners like to show off with all sizzle...
And they certainly love to groom one another for more human follies that quickly turn stale and can ultimately only get disgusting after a short while of being really funny. In their view, the face and dignity are both saved, and their petit world is still perfect.
Just Like, a Chinese folk keeps showing off his petty dignity for 'being a Chinese' which is highly likely the only self affirmation to hold his already crumbling ego, and, out of nothing less than the banality of evil, turns it into blind hostility toward anything or anyone he knows for certain, deep within his pathetic heart, that will be never be within his reach, not even possible in a dream. But to me, uhhhh, that bubbling sour stew of envy feels SO WARM, so fulfilling, and so sastifying, which makes me so sure of myself, and the really less popular path I pick.
Fortunately, his ignorance and incapability to further understand a damn thing do give himself a big help pushing on, which I shall keep enjoy.
>>Nowadays mop rags are tired of engaging beard stro...
Unfortunately, no quite.
The path of thorn is only for the few as always, for it always will be.
The majority always turn to balenciaga or con artists when facing uncertainty, out of whatever reasons which I sum in one word: 'chicken'.
That's how this world be, and how people tick.
>>Unfortunately, no quite.The path of thorn is only ...
So what is the point in staying here? Homō hominī lupus est, but you have to hold your nose to talk to rotting walking dead, homo coprophagus somnambulus. Nonsense my dear. Only can you do if you are Coprophilia.
真的不必纠结语法什么的，甚至口音也没关系。你试想一下自己说普通话和人交流的时候会想到用什么名词动词过去式现在式将来式吗？根本不可能的，所以说外语也是这样说。归根结底是要像孩子那样学习语言，先听，听不懂就猜，婴儿不也是这样么，到了一岁多甚至更大一点才会开口说。我真的推荐那本书，为什么没人在意，里面详细解释了语言应该怎么学。有句话很精辟：外语学习的原理是如此的复杂，以至于没人能说清楚，但是掌握外语的过程又是如此的简单，以至于不需要说清楚。
>>So what is the point in staying here? Homō hominī ...
I despise corpse-lovers, so I try not to become one myself.
The difference between you and me is now crystal clear, you showed your beliefs 'people are hopeless', 'not trustworthy', which is quite similar to what I believe 'Chinese are hopeless', plus now I am certain 'a lot of men are hopeless', no matter they languages, skin-colours, cultures, or the length of their history.
Yet, since I was a Genuine Chinese who simply can get really excited hearing phrases like 'our great nation', 'the Chinese people suffered from the Western Powers', or shit alike...you see, that is really a long way to reach where I am.
If everyone in China is hopeless, that belief simply negates at least myself, and is contrary to what I have been seeing. Some, even maybe only a handful, individuals in China, certainly deserve better, worthy as I think I was and still be, therefore I cannot pretend not seeing them, as long as they don't insist 'shithole is simply better' and try to shovel it down my throat and up my pucker during my approach.
For Truth is always at reach, those who cannot simply won't, whatever excuses they use, or how strong their odour can be.
Regimes fall, ideologies die, countries collapse, societies corrupt, civilizations destroy themselves, and the grand churchs of divinity turn into halls of vanity, all those in greatness, they will all one day pass the point of no return, but a Man capable of Truth is and always will be worthy. Caring or saving, mocking or defacing, that's up to an observer's choice.
-----------------------------------
Here's my conclusion from personal research into Sociology: Trust makes the world of men, of community, of society, and of nation, without it nothing is possible, not even all the madness and hypocrisy walking the earth at this moment. For the Evil to be able to corrupt the world, the Good has to exist first. That Good comes out of men's trust in Truth, which is eternal.
Truth distinguishes what's worthy and what's to despise, you certainly will have your own findings, but I think the things to despise cannot be 'man in general', for logic deems so.
A more straight answer?
You might enjoy misogyny, just don't be the mysanthropist who ultimately and inevitably becomes either a hypocrite or nihilist. You fix yourself on that despair, then the world to you is already dead.
Now who's guilt of necrophilia, pal?
”’黑人留学生在中国念几年下来，中文不成问题‘’ 这个论断本身就有问题。我在国内的时候接触很多留学生，几乎所有的外国来华留学生，表达和理解都和中国母语者有明显的差距。会错意，表达不准确是常态。 除非你对语言使用准确要求低，万万是不能说黑人普通话说得溜这种话的。成都江喃，台大史嘉琳这些算天花板的，长对话过程中，还是能时不时地探到他们表达的问题。
此外，楼主的标题是成年人学英语的困难。这个说法很客观的，放在大多数人身上，英语学习本就是困难，除了语言本身，文字圈舒适度这些都有影响。你在这里上品葱，本身和纯英文圈就有代沟。
此外，楼主的标题是成年人学英语的困难。这个说法很客观的，放在大多数人身上，英语学习本就是困难，除了语言本身，文字圈舒适度这些都有影响。你在这里上品葱，本身和纯英文圈就有代沟。
不是成年人学英语很难，而是没有语言环境学外语的人都很难。本人自五岁开始学英语，到今天几十年过去，依然做不到流利交流，依然有非常多的生词和很多认识但不会用的词。
学语言就和学骑自行车一样，你不实际去用，学再多的理论也照样还是有问题。
native speaker是一种自然而然的流露，你不实际去用，哪怕背了很多词，深入了解语法，依然学不好语言。
Although my English is poor,but I dear to say.
学语言就和学骑自行车一样，你不实际去用，学再多的理论也照样还是有问题。
native speaker是一种自然而然的流露，你不实际去用，哪怕背了很多词，深入了解语法，依然学不好语言。
Although my English is poor,but I dear to say.
qiuzizi
新注册用户 (待解除)
中文一样很难学好吗。
几个外国人学好过。
好多沙雕汉学家，拿着英译版的史记写英语的史记研究，呵呵了。
几个外国人学好过。
好多沙雕汉学家，拿着英译版的史记写英语的史记研究，呵呵了。
>>Fine，一件事我好奇：你以前认识我？我上次写长段英文得有几个月了吧，那时我的用户名是中文的尼德兰。...
点开你的头像可以看到你以前的文章。昨天我扫了一眼，没细看。今天稍微细看了下，立刻发现一个错误：“In every episode is sufficient and comprehensive background knowledge”，应该是漏了个there吧（ the authors will try to，will也应该去掉，保持同一时态）。唐德刚先生说“要写一封清通无讹的(idiomatic & flawless) 英文信，也都很困难”，这话写于几十年前，岂不是很有先见之明！！哈哈哈哈。但是，正如我主贴里说的，成年人学一门语言，做到native speaker那个水平实在很难的。我没有苛责你的意思，我自己也深受困扰，所以读了唐的这段话才深有感触。
>>”’黑人留学生在中国念几年下来，中文不成问题‘’ 这个论断本身就有问题。我在国内的时候接触很多留学生...
哈哈，你是少见了。中文说得溜溜转的黑人、白人留学生，见多了去了。这可不是我一个人的见识，国内大城市都有此感觉。
当然，个体之间有差距，这也是肯定的。但象中国留学生那样，出国后普遍英语进步不大，连听都有困难，那就很少。
自古以来，学语言就是个说难也不难的事。有那环境，不难；没有，那就真不容易。你想，别的不说，土共给外国留学生配三个陪聊陪睡的女伴，社会上的中国女孩投怀送抱。光凭这两条，他们想学不好中文都难。
在加拿大，那些与老外同居或结婚的中国女性英语也讲得很捧喔。还有中国留学朝鲜古巴的，几年下来当地语言也鲜有大成问题的。特别是古巴，中国人学西班牙语不比学英语容易吧。可人家同样有组织安排的同学陪练帮助，所以进步不可同日而语。
中国人留学加拿大，大多处于边缘人状态要承认，边缘人学外语有困难也要承认。不承认，就是死要面子活受罪嘛。
>>点开你的头像可以看到你以前的文章。昨天我扫了一眼，没细看。今天稍微细看了下，立刻发现一个错误：“In...
您说的是我介绍YouTube频道的那篇吧，感谢你对我谦逊态度的建议。但是您误会了，我想说的内容换个顺序就是sufficient and comprehensive background knowledge is in every episode.
这就像是一般我们说，“有个人站在那儿”，a person stands there，但我们有时也会说“那儿站着个人”，there stands a person，就是这样一回事。
至于will，我觉得没有去掉的必要，因为这如同设想我们如果观看，会看见什么。
>>您说的是我介绍YouTube频道的那篇吧，感谢你对我谦逊态度的建议。但是您误会了，我想说的内容换个顺...
呃，您发给一个native speaker朋友请他看下就知，您想说的意思，地道的表达肯定是in every episode there is...；the authors will try to是用and和前面的连在一起的，因此时态宜保持一致；而且will的意思是，the authors将会做到，但拍都拍出来，能做到就做到了，不应该用will的。reason应该是复数那个就更明显了，相信您无异议。
>>什么完美不完美。现在不是你在考英语，是你要去“融入主流”，要在人家的地面上赚钱谋生。语言，特别是口语...
What I mean is even native speaker will make lapse. The majority Chinese pay too much attention on the grammatical error, thus avoiding speaking practice. The essential differences between the native and the learners is whether you dare to say, to try, to show yourself without shyness.
>>Yes, and beside that everyone has their own way to...
Foreigners/Native speakers always encourage me or the majority Chinese to be brave, don't be afraid of making mistakes thus giving up speaking practice.
(Just wanna share some learning tips...)
>>What I mean is even native speaker will make lapse...
首先奉劝你也不必再秀你的中式英语。觉得自己英语牛，就去英语网。这里不是英语网，也不是学英语专栏。隔靴搔痒，不到位的英语表达有意思吗？
中国人在国外讲英语的问题，关键不是国内想象，或者他们为掩盖真实状况而诉说的发音不准、语感不足、语法错误、用词不当、表达单调等毛病，而是他们的听说仍有一定的障碍。所谓的“英语过关”，也就一些生活工作的日常事一对一交谈没问题。如果处于一群老外中，就往往无法理解他们相互间谈话内容的细节，也就很难参与；看英语电影，则永远停留在听懂简单部分，关键复杂的地方靠猜，无法做到象欣赏普通话节目那样欣赏英语影视剧。
造成这种状况的原因是缺乏足够的语言环境实践。缺乏语言环境的原因，就是因为中国人出国后的边缘人状态。
有甚么反转？俺作为一个初学者，只是觉得英语是很有趣的，反正越学越有趣，多在互联网上看英文的内容，不会很枯燥的。
>>呃，您发给一个native speaker朋友请他看下就知，您想说的意思，地道的表达肯定是in ev...
在我与英语母语人士打交道时，他们也使用我对于“存在”的表达，对此我暂时觉得没问题。至于这个will，我实际上采取了期望作者将会做什么的视角，和你的理解是不一样的，而这在英语里也有使用的场合，比如一些youtuber解说游戏时。
对于reason的那段，你会发现主语是reason why.... AND how .....所以我用了are，您看，这又是个误会。
>>呃，您发给一个native speaker朋友请他看下就知，您想说的意思，地道的表达肯定是in ev...
前面的都不重要了。我想请教您一些问题，以下是我在别的地方写的两段话，感觉好像有点问题，您觉得呢？
1, Look, someone is standing there, are they a student from my school?
2, Every Russian is not supporting Putin, after all some Russians want peace.
>>在我与英语母语人士打交道时，他们也使用我对于“存在”的表达，对此我暂时觉得没问题。至于这个will，...
大家理性讨论哈，没必要意气用事。我向来是“闻过则喜”，因为又长学问了。首先前两处我指出的绝对没问题的。你自己找一个native speaker朋友，请他看一下就知道。reason那个，如果你想用reason why.... AND how ...are，地道的表达是： why.... AND how ....are，不需要用reason，不但对称，更具美感，而且不会使人出现误会。至于“read my concepts”，是典型的中式英语，肯定是“read my mind”之误。我想说的是，成年人学英语不易，你讽刺老实承认难处的唐德刚(而他的英语水平比你我要高很多），其实大可不必。哈哈哈哈